The Mod 15 TR

[tornnomar]

As most of you know TR's were smashed in the head with the Nerf Bat on NOV 6th 2018. Damage reductions across the board, skills no longer giving Power but instead giving damage boosts. (Cryptic's polite way of "we nerfed you!"

A day before the mod patch, I went with a group of players on my friends list into Merchant Princes Folly. I took Paingiver. Earlier today, post patch, we got together and ran Folly again. I finished 4th. 16.7k TR beaten by a 11.8k GWF in Paingiver. I managed a little over 14 mill in damage, whereas a day before the patch I hit over 90 mill! I should've done a before and after vid.

Now this is totally because of Cryptics "balancing' attempts. Over 30% of the Executioners path requires you to kill stuff before you receive a buff. This basically means that when you kill a mob, you then get the buffs, but of course Mobs dead, so you stand there buffed with nothing to kill.

As much as I hate to say it, Executioner is done. Looking at the overall picture it would appear that SAB is the way to go going forward as its the only tree that doesn't seemingly punish the player and its buffs are active while the mob is still alive:) Borrow a few Scoundrel feats and the TR may be viable again.
Also with the 'changes' to our dailies it is no longer possible to Power stack for TR's. That was taken from us. Whirlwind and Courage Breaker no longer grant Power, instead they grant a pathetic debuff, which is as worthless as a fly swatter at a Sword fight!

For those still interested in the TR, Enyo has a Mod 15 build at MMOMinds that is pretty good.
Just know that all of the builds in this section are no longer viable.

Game on everyone!
Rain

[Ziek88]

I will be interested to see how Sab works for you. I have definitely seen a lot of rogues struggling with finding their place but I can confirm, they can still do some good poking with those blades. Last night I did TonG as tactGf with a DC, SW, CW and Rogue. Everyone ~14-16k. The SW and CW barely out damaged my tactGf just to show how little damage they brought directly. The rogue on the other hand was basically a blender mowing down the everything. I wish I could say how they were built. The only ability I definitively spotted was smoke bome and duelist flurry. Compared to other runs where a 16-17k gwf was the primary damage, this run with the rogue was not any different. All 3 boss fights only lasted 1-2 minutes and the rogue was basically all of the damage.

I share this to let all the rogues know there is hope and still a strong place for them. No idea how it is achieved but it does exist. I'll keep a better eye on what they are doing going along.

The biggest difference I noticed is how to properly tank for a TR as primary damage. My line is designed to make a GWF shine. Commander's strike giving that +40% damage to IBS. This doesn't really help a rogue. Sure there is lashing blade but rogues have so many continual damage encounters that is hard to manage. I dropped Commander's strike and instead put more ways to proc my crushing pin feat for longer uptime which makes the target take 10% more damage all the time rather than a single strike.

It is possible a lot of what rogues need may be less about their build and more about how they are being supported. From a GFs perspective. The idea of variety of playstyle pending who we're supporting sounds great.

*edit
Actually, the rogue run was smoother than GWF. The smoke bomb stun at the start of the fight meant mobs where stun locked from start to end with the CW following up meaning no enemies other than bosses ever got to attack.

[tornnomar]

Well there is some good news here:) Though TR's can't use Whirlwind or Courage Breaker to stack Power any longer, it doesnt prevent us from getting buffed by power sharing pallys and DC's.
And thankfully they left Smoke Bomb alone. Launched while in stealth, it gives the party combat advantage for its duration.

As I said earlier, Enyo has an updated TR guide here: https://nw.mmominds.com/2018/11/03/enyo/

Its has a wealth of info and is a good read.

[Ziek88]

Got to finally digest the info I've been looking at with rogues.

I think the general situation is rogues are not easy. They have precise rotations that must be executed carefully to achieve meaningful damage. On top of that they really require fully optimized gear. That means the hunt gear farmed for, the best 5 companions and all of them upgraded. Stats balanced for peak armor pen, crit and then power. This was pretty true with bringing my warlock to the DPS table as well. They also get bad comparison to GWF. The GWF can usually dump it's arsenal within 2-3 seconds of the fight starting. Rogues have to wait a little longer so when the two classes are in a dungeon together the GWF appears better on the damage chart when really they could be equal or the rogue could even be better.

It does seem that rogues are heavily dependent on gaining then dealing high amounts of combat advantage damage. Cryptic just announced a new enchantment that has CA as a stat. It will be interesting to see if this is good.

From tanking perspective I've noticed every rogue goes to the campfire before and after bosses to change loadout. It seems Sab is best for mobs and Executioner rules the boss fights. Rogues can't get away with a once and done loadout. Also, if I am choosing between a rogue and a GWF I actually prefer a rogue. They typically are mechanically better which makes a dungeon run much smoother. They don't compete for aggro and are most often positioned better so they take less damage. I don't think this necessarily reflects on the player but more how the player is taught to play by the game. A GWF is run and and swing swing swing through all the content. Why would they immediately know to do it differently in a dungeon? A rogue gets splatted if they try that most of the game so are forced to change that approach long before group dungeons.

@Rain I'm curious to know if your experience has improved since going back to the rogue. That is, when your chultan tiger is summoned :-p.

[Phelaia]

@Ziek...about tanking for a rogue...

Positioning: a smart rogue always know exactly where to stand to maximize combat advantage, and they also know how to keep enough space around themselves should they need to roll and dodge. So you the tank should park the boss at spot where the rogue has some breathing room just in case ITC can't save them. Generally, if the arena is a pie, the center of the pie is good.

Timing: in some way, it's the rogue's job to watch the GF and the DC for the right time to fire off Lashing Blade, since a rogue's damage can be very burst-y. Lashing Blade is actually a lot like a CW's Disintegrate -- when set up just right, the damage is ridiculously huge. So if you the GF maintains a rotation like clockwork, the rogue can figure out how to count "one potato, two potato, three potato..."

Aggro: while a rogue is generally pretty survivable as long as they're not too greedy to get "just one more hit," they sometimes can manage to steal aggro from you. So, they'd really appreciate it if you can steal that aggro back.

A great place to practice tanking for a TR...epic Grey Wolf where everything jumps around like a Jack Russell Terrier...

[Ziek88]

I present "Tanking for Rogues"

They are so bursty. Power stacking has been stripped but it was replaced with % based damage increases which is nothing to scoff at. I've been noticing a lot of the damage rogues using ITC as a damage boost proc rather than defensive. The scoundrel tree has a +10% CA damage after using ITC.

The rotation I have been using for single target is Stealth into Wicked Reminder to apply 3 stacks and start the Shadow of Demise timer. Then ITC into a daily followed by Duelist's Flurry. I pop my stealth again right as the flurry starts and then hit Lashing blade as the flurry ends while stealth is still active. I have not gotten to test this yet but I would consider courage breaker when the boss is above 50%HP and then Shocking Execution when they drop below 50%.

This has all the possible self buffs I can apply active at the same time and then stacks as much damage as I can into the Shadow of Demise proc which when it pops hits for a lot of damage.

I don't have the hunt gear or the right companion lineup yet but this would definitely melt bosses. I suspect adding a soul sight crystal to the mix would be pretty great as well. I will be playing campaign catchup this mod and waiting for mod16 to make time/AD investment in gear as it is likely to change and this is not a main.

Under this rotation timing that lashing blade with commander's strike. Such a big hit.

[Phelaia]

Look what I found!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Dw ... ygoqu3qs3w

Check it out. Read it. Chew on it. Steal from it. Stab away.